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Dragunov
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Zitat:
A TOW can punch through 80mm armor maximum...a modern Tank has the equivalent (with all the hightech polymere, ceramic, kevlar, Steel, whatever, and Soviet ERA expecially) of 120mm easily. So if you want Realism, it´ll take 8 or 9 TOW hits to kill a T80BV with ERA armor, and maybe 2 or 3 to kill a M60.




I think you mean cm not mm, right?

Eight or nine TOWs for one T80 is ridiculous, if one TOW hits a tank, in most cases it is destroyed. 1200mm of RHA applies only to the turrets front, which is the area where a tank is hit most often. But that is only true for tank vs tank combats. If there are missiles launched from aircraft or from infantry in urban area, a missile wont hit the turrets front.

03.02.2009, 09:30 Dragunov is offline   Profile for Dragunov Add Dragunov to your buddy list Send an Email to Dragunov
DMZ
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Hmm, and what makes you think that the humvee standard does not have a laser to guide the missile, even if manually?

I agree, that it cannot take out a T-80BV/UK in 1-2 shots(reactive/dynamic armor) but the T-64's and M60's are pretty much toast (if the humvee lives long enough to fire that is).

But seriously, there is a reson why that rocket does not go straight, but follows it's target, don't you think?

By 1986, the TOW was less effective against the newer tanks, but it still could do quite some damage.

I will gladly "eat it" if you go to an army polygon and actually see that missile in action.


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Chrinik
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Zitat:
Originally posted by Dragunov
I think you mean cm not mm, right?

Eight or nine TOWs for one T80 is ridiculous, if one TOW hits a tank, in most cases it is destroyed.



Oh yeah, i meant cm...

But no, if a TOW hits a more modern Tank, it is not "destroyed".
Maybe scratched, but not defeated.

Modern(and by modern, i mean Cold War Modern) Chobham armor for instance can take HEAT rounds like bublegum, and the TOW is nothing more then a HEAT round in an oversized rocket.
The Israeli "Blazer" and the Vickers "Stillbrew" Armor are also uneffected by HEAT rounds.
The Armor development aimed to minimalize damage by HEATs after the Yom Kippur War.

They do damage, yeah, but ERA was designed to counter TOWs, and they succeeded, to a degree, since when someone develops a new armor, someone develops a new weapon that can defeat it.
The Hellfire, the Panzerfaust-3T and the RPG-29 use a Tandem HEAT Warhead, the first charge kills the ERA and the second kills the armor, and the Hellfire can punch through 150cm of Armor, just if the question would arise how the Hellfire works then.
Also its fired by Helicopters and Planes, mostly.

Why do you think the more modern (as in nowadays) used Anti-tank Missiles fly above the Target, and strike it from above?
Because the Armor is the weakest there.

Even the MILAN only has a Armorpiercing ability of 33mm (yes, Millimeter) and the TOW was one of the best Anti-tank missiles ever created, and even military experts say that it´s almost useless against new, composite armors.
Normal armor (as in, steel plates) in light vehicles and APCs is destroyed almost instantly, but T80s and M1 Abrams aren´t effected by HEAT anymore.

And the TOW is guided by SACLOS, that means, the gunner has a reticle, which he has to keep in target, the computer in the aiming device calculates the difference of the flightpath and the missile corrects it course.
The Humvee doesnt have any "Lazorz" to guide rockets, the firing device might have, but it isnt "Laser guided" technically, as the Warhead doesnt recognize anything else then the data of the Computer, where in real Laser guidance Warheads, the Warhead recognizes the reflection of the Laser designator and aimes for it.

The only reason the TOW is still in service is that america never took on anything more modern then old Soviet T72 and other outdated materials, and its still high effectiveness against light vehicles and the like.
They´d switch to something better once they had to fight a modern army, such as the newer Russian and Chinese tanks, or even the European ones, but lets all hope it wont come to that.


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Post last edited by Chrinik on 07.04.2009, 20:40.

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Dragunov
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Zitat:
Normal armor (as in, steel plates) in light vehicles and APCs is destroyed almost instantly, but T80s and M1 Abrams aren´t effected by HEAT anymore.




I think you underestimate the effect of explosives.

Even old RPGs can damage an Abrams and even endanger the crew inside. You should distance yourself a little bit from these theoretical values.

There is a reson why the M1A2 was upgraded to TUSK. The reason are not the IEDs, the reason are shoulder fired weapons. What is the consequence of it? The Abrams is vulnerable to RPGs.

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TornadoADV
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TUSK addressed the risk of mobility kills from massed fire of low cost RPGs aimed at the Treads and exposed Turbine exhaust. The SEP Armor already does more then enough to protect the crew and weapon systems from damage.

So you basically turn the Abrams from a tank into a really nasty pillbox.


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hyperion
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MOBILE pillbox.

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Chrinik
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No he meant when you fire RPGs at the treads and destroy the Abrams mobility, you turn it into a pillbox.

I want to excuse myself for my rough tone, it´s just that i talk alot with people from the military, with Veterans and read alot of books, that doesn´t mean im an expert, but that i strongly believe that i can trust my sources.

I like the way the TOWs and AT-5s work in CWC, they do a realistic and still balanced amount of damage against the late level Tanks, and i won´t ask for any change in that.
Also RPGs have HEAT Warheads, they do damage the Steelplating of modern Tanks, but they do not pierce through all the different materials in the Armor.

I´ve talked to a Desert Storm veteran a few years back, you know how not a single Abrams has been defeated, and he told me his Abrams was hit by 3 RPGs, and later he examined the Damage and found huge holes from the impact of the rockets but the armor wasn´t pierced at any point. They had Chobham armor at that time. He did tho say that if an RPG hits the exaust from behind or the threads, the Tank is unable to move or heavily damaged, but the Tank wont stop to function, they could return fire until someone tows them out.
The Brits are still veeery good at developing armor for Battletanks.

I don´t know what the Soviets are using in their Tanks since they where very secretive about their equipment back in the days, and not a single Ex-Russian soldier would tell me because they don´t know either, "We are payed to use it, not to build it." one said XD


BUT
To go back to topic, how do you counter AT Vehicles...hm, my best guess is AIR RAIDS and Artillery!
In early game, AT vehicles can be pretty devestating, but later on, level 2 or 3 AT vehicles are easy cannon fodder.
Reconisance is vital, when you want to attack a position, scout it, see whats there, and if you find AT vehicles and defences, bomb them to oblivion with some F-16s or MiGs or Artillery then advance with Tanks and Infantry.
That would be my guess...i know it´s easy talk but i guess when someone spams AT-vehicles, you should switch taktics acourdingly.


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Never the less, CWC advanced, which is always a plus
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"Everyone who posts a Replay without the accompaning Versionnumber is stupid and should be bolted to a TOW and shot at the nearest T-72!" - Chrinik

Post last edited by Chrinik on 13.04.2009, 18:06.

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Robok
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In CWC, the only really effective tactic against AT vehicle spam is AT vehicle spam, honestly I have yet to come to a situation where I could use jets and/or helicopters to destroy AT vehicles, their users are usually smart enough not to keep them in one place.

That's also one thing about them, if you counter them with your own AT vehicles the kills:casualties ratio is ALWAYS close to 1:1, you simply can't avoid casualties in such encounters. Then you've also got the IFV vs. IFV encounter which results in both being killed. I think ultimately this was the reason why AT missiles need to be able to miss, to make them a viable solution but not THE ultimate solution.


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HaryPL
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Hm.. Mi24 / Cobra for AT spam

Anyway, i do not want to hurry anyone, but maybe small info about progresses / stuff in new patch?


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